Above all, lets keep it civil and constructive.

"We need our Evil Emperors (TheMittani), our Tywin Lannister (Baltec1) and the other assorted scoundrels out there, we even need the phosphorescent green mold that accumulates under many space urinals (The New Order).

What we don't need is a Hannibal Lector mind humping his prey before eating their liver with a nice Chianti, it's not good press, it's not good for player retention and it is not good for the community.

That recording is truly awful and if it evokes such a primal response Eve players (arguably a harder bunch than average) imagine it in the hands of a politician that wants to add restrictions to gaming, mother's being asked for their cc# so a new guy can make an account etc.etc.

Our Hannibal is obviously extremely intelligent and he can change his act if he chooses to, so banning, not the best option in my opinion. He did a disgusting thing, but many things I see in this game, particularly in this thread, which seems to have attracted the worst of the worst in this game, sicken me. However, it's not my game to say what is acceptable; CCP and the community will have to decide." -Drone16

Have to agree here. I would like to think that the person "roleplaying" a truly reprehensible individual in game is not some sort of "spread the lotion on itself..." kind of guy in real life.

After all, the game is Rated:Teen, not 45 with peanut butter issues

I like the stance CCP took, keep the douchebaggery, but let everyone know there are limits that they will determine on a case by case.

Go read the 380 page threadzilla for starters.

http://podborn.com/community/psychopaths-guide-to-the-bonus-room my article on the matter. Covers everything.

The point of the game is that it's also supposed to be a game.

Here is a direct question to you as a fail politician. Why I should vote you.. or anybody else? So far your an useless nothing, the whole CSM is a joke. Dafuq are guys doing there except drinking shiat with ccp? Look at the reprocessing blog.. you were owned by the major null sec alliances and you are nothing more like a pet. So remind me.. why I need to vote for csm?

I can scam and fuk up people without your support nor ccp EULA &shiat.. really.. give me a really good reason why ANY eve players should vote!

Here, let me give you a better analogy:

If you're playing rugby and someone tackles you and you skin your knee, who should you really be mad at: The person who tackles you or the guy who rubs salt on the wound?

Yeah. A game about space ships, not gaming the rules.

Erotica1 should be the next Community Spotlight imo

It's about what was happening after erotica1 & co already had all the mark's ISK, assets and even his API. Once they've got all his stuff, then what happened after that wasn't about being an evil character in game. It was just about being evil.

I was extremely concerned to make sure that erotica1 got due process. You may recall that I took considerable heat for speaking up for his right to fair treatment.

After considerable dialogue with CCP's community team (that was the 2 days when we all went quiet and were "doing nothing" I came away fully satisfied that CCP's intended action was fair, justified and within their previously stated rules.

Then get this: once you've got all your target's money and killed all his ships, leave him alone.

Mario Putzo wrote:
I guess If I have a question for CCP.

Where exactly is the line?

So Malcanis, why in your professional opinion should someone running a scam be entirely responsible for stopping? Why in all of this, while the "victim" is fully capable of ending it at any moment does absolutely no responsibility fall to him?

If this is true than it makes me happy CCP would punish someone for this kind of psychological abuse. It wasn't about scamming, it was about the unneeded abuse that took place after. It is obvious where the line has been drawn.

He was banned in this environment. 3 months or so iirc

"Tries to get someone to commit suicide" Read what you just wrote. There shouldn't be any doubt in your mind that a ban should be forthcoming we are talking about human beings here. Are you mindless?

So Telling someone to go off themselves is worth 3 months, While making a snide remark about someones speech impairment is worth a perma? Please tell me more about how thats even remotely fair...

Depends whether it's him or whoever he's sharing the acct with that's at the keyboard.

Mr Epeen

Different situation entirely so I have no idea.

One time incident versus repeat offender. Public apology versus laughing it off.

When I read this dev post, my first impression was that it is a denunciation of the bonus room activities. But it isn't. It's a strongly worded but generic condemnation of harassment.

To me it is very clear that Erotica1's shenanigans are harassment. But this is not so clear to other players. My personal opinion doesn't matter that much, but CCP's does. Sadly, the post is silent on that. The dev post therefore provides very little guidance, and does not address the issue at hand.

If you continue to interact with him and goad him for no reason other than to goad him, then you're in the red zone.

Precisely.

I'm amazed that some posters here still can't differentiate in game play (ganking, scamming and even bumping - all good and CCP sanctioned) versus taking it out of game and subjecting a mark to several hours of TS3 slavery for no in game benefit whatsoever.

To those types of players, I suggest you learn the difference quickly.

Ya but thats the thing. My line could be a tiny dot compared to someone like you (hypothetically of course) My judgement says, singing a bunch of songs while being scammed is fine. The victim of the scam must realize they have been had. Should responsibility also not fall up on them to say when enough is enough.

That is what is arbitrary about it and why we had 380 page thread (400 including this) discussing the "line". We all don't have the same limits on what and what is not considered harassment.

If I gank the same miner a dozen times in a night because he hasn't learned how to defend himself, or go find a different place...I see that as taking advantage of someone who is being a moron repeatedly, he might consider it griefing and harassment.

Which one of us is right? There are hundreds of systems he can mine in, and nothing prevents me from killing him every time he undocks. Should I have to say, well I killed him 11 times already I guess ill let him go the 12th time just incase he says im harassing him?

Or does it only apply to TS related things, and at what point does it become the "victims" responsibility to remove themselves from a situation they may find uncomfortable.

We can draw arbitrary lines all over the sandbox. It would be nice to know at what point we reach the limits of the sandbox, so EVERYONE knows where that line is, otherwise it amounts to personal opinion, and that changes from me to you, to the next guy, even CCP Employees have differing individual opinions.

That's what I'm talking about, right there.
I don't care how much he does or doesn't rage at me. If he keeps coming back into the lowsec system I live in, when he knows full-well, by now that he's going to be rewarded for it with a facefull of Ferox, I'm GOING to keep giving it to him.
Now, all he has to do at that point is petition me, and send the GM the EVEmails whereby he raged at me and demanded that I stop preventing him from encroaching on my home, breaking my ratting chain, and scaring off better targets, and I responded by sending him the lyrics to Particle Man.
Now, poor old Garamonde is temp banned for harassment, and the moron carebear that doesn't understand what lowsec means, gets pretty much "Lethal Weapon 2 Style Diplomatic Immunity" as a result. All he has to do is claim that I was deliberately targeting him, simply to harass him.

That's total crap and you know it.

I guess it's that fine line between trying to torment them until they snap by absolving them of their isk/assets, vs. trying to torment them until they snap by rubbing salt in the wound for having done the former

Your example is total crap, as nothing has changed wrt what you can do in game. What has been made clear is that taking it out of game and circumventing the EULA won't stop CCP from taking in game action.

Thanks for the tears though.

Not willfull ignorance.

People want a clear line so they can dance right up to it, Xenos paradox style

No, The line is in shadow, determined on a case by case basis. Dance near it and accept the risk or exercise some retraint and be risk free. You cvan still scam, strill explode ships, still awox

What I do not understand is why you WANT to do more

m

No, I'm asking a representative of the players who has spoken directly to CCP regarding this very matter to relay what he would consider their position to be. IF he does not know, it's his responsibility to say that and seek an answer from CCP. The players deserve to be given clear and concise ruling on matters where an infraction could cost them their ability to play.

All I want is clarity. Is that so much to ask?

Thanks so much for the clarity there Mr representative of the player base. Thanks for addressing the concerns that several members of the eve community have and presenting them to CCP, and relaying information back to us.

Oh wait...

Well you've already stated you're not voting under any circumstances, so, you know, whatever.

Also CCP aren't going to disband the CSM no matter how mad you get. I bet that makes you pretty mad, huh?

Not getting caught is a pretty good defence until it isn't.

Do you think you're capable of detecting when you're pushing another human being over the line?

No I'm tired and I've had enough. If what I've already posted hasn't made the reality clear, then anything I post after this won't do it either.

I've earned my free holiday to Iceland, and you can all **** off and act like sensible human beings.

Before you relax, the word you meant to use is "tenets".

Well, let me clarify. Continuing your TS scam of a player beyond the point where there is anything further to obtain from that player is wrong, is taking the game too far, and can get you in trouble. When your only goal is to get real tears in the chat channel, then you have crossed a line. If that seems unreasonable to you then you're not in this for the game.

You've got it absolutely right. Lets look at what actually happened, Erotica scammed someone, that's acceptable in eve. For a little fun he plays a little wind up game, having the victim sing, arguably no worse than trash talking in local. Then Sokhar starts swearing, being racist and acting like a madman at Erotica simply for doing things that are perfectly allowed in the game. At no point does Erotica descend to Sokhar's level, remaining the professional scammer he was. Surely it is Sokhar who is the bad guy in this story, getting angry at Erotica for doing what people in eve do.

Well, balls.

Not at all, well if you lack any kind of comprehension of the English written language and are a total psychopath yeah maybe you will have some issues.

Repeat after me: "Unless I go completely outside the bounds of acceptable human behavior I will still be able to do all the things I currently enjoy doing in this game"

The man is banned.

Why keep insulting him but to rub salt in the wound?

Can someone give me a quick TL;DR of the thread please?

with all the bitching going on, I can only assume that most of you have not been in the military. In the military rules change hourly depending on you commanding office and how he feels, get use to it and you will rarely be disappointed in life

Did the Wiz report The Mittani?

If he didn't then I guess using your logic CCP should of not banned The Mittani.

A lot of snide comments and slanderous remarks being directed at Erotica 1, why if id say there are quite a few folks harassing this individual who has already received punishment for his actions.

Well.

I think the topic is done with.

CCP stayed to their doctrines and within their established powers regarding the intent and purpose of their game and property. They have successfully protected it from an attack this week.

CSM showed their worth in this process and I am left rethinking my attitude about them.

Grief fetishists are sent a message while nobody's ganking/piracy/stealing/scamming playstyle is being changed or threatened (except in the minds of grief fetishists who use said activities as their "vehicle")


Well done. I think CCP and the CSM has earned their pay for the week. I take my leave to now consume fermented hops in mass quantities knowing that the game I care about will survive this, and that in spite of a small minority of people who could use some help, still has the best player base with some of the best people you could ever meet (and shoot - in game of course). Even the players I don't like, who have peeled my ships like bananas, I still hold in high regard.

Please everyone. The threadnaught of old is dead. CCP have spoken.

If you do not understand the announcement made by CCP. I would ask them for clarification. Not the General Discussion forum.

Please stop bringing up old topics from a locked thread. Or insulting other players for their own interpretation of what CCP said.

So are you saying that so long as it only one person who has been humiliated or harassed then its okay?

Marvelous!

Before leaving to the closest pub to drink myself in a happy sturpor I wanted to write my final post about what troubles me in this debacle. You sir did it for me and with much more panache I could ever muster up.
From the bottom of my dark hearth, thank you.
Also, my bartender thanks you too!

D. OUT.

I do not know if the GM's have ever been biased, could you please provide examples where this has happened?

By extension, this thread isn't real life.

Confirming. I was once a 13F.
One Infantry commander doesn't understand why there's Artillerymen in his unit, and thinks we're all Detail Specialists. Life sucks in FiSTerland.
He moves on, and a new commander takes over, who thinks his FO's are just plain ducky, and lets us train to our blackened hearts' content. Life is awesome in FiSTerland.

(please refrain from crude sexual jokes.... FiSTer stands for "Fire Support Team Member"... yes, I know it sounds funny. Deal with it)

Yes, that's silly. Because it's obviously wrong. And I have a CCP decision to back it up.

Fair enough, if you believe Sokhars reaction was extreme, but was not caused by any actions by Erotica, then what do you believe caused such an extreme reaction from Sokhar?

I'm talking about Sokhar's bonus room as this seems to be the direct reason for Erotica's ban.

Thin skin and lack of understanding of the game he's playing.

The game he was playing, I thought Eve was about shooting space pixels, I didn't realise it also involved being humiliated and then having a recording of it all placed on the internet.

Must of missed that part on the advertising, need to ask CCP to make a promo vid.

Mittani's action was in a CCP venue where CCP had direct evidence of the problem.

Erotica1's harassment was on a separate service that has to be brought to CCP's attention for them to know about it. I only want to know if the standard is now that 3rd-party reporting of out-of-game violations is sufficient for action.




(Also he probably had petitioned Mittani before that and been rejected. The whole story behind The Wiz was that he got scammed and then sent a lot of mails to people in GF about killing himself because of it. Mittens and other people had reposted those mails for mockery, which likely led to distributed harassment from lots of people in GSF. Should he have been banned months before the drunken fanfest outrage?)

Considering your signature, your response to this is particularly entertaining.

ok where has anyone said that the racism and threats where allowed.

1: You pay EVE online to harvest tears? Interesting.

2: You are aware that real people play the game right? That a flesh and bone human being controls that rifter?

3: Ah, the curse of English as a second language strikes again! Or perhaps it's irony. The number of times I've seen someone criticizing someone's else "intellegence" (sic)... I guess it was bound to happen to me.

Are you actually saying that telling a CCP Employee to die in a ******* fire should not receive a ban?

Okay... I'll take the "Ssieth has liked your post" notification to mean "yes". Great... moving right along then:

It's **Definition Time** XD

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/harass

Subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation

So, by that definition, anyone in this game who subjects anyone else in this game to "aggressive pressure or intimidation" is skirting the harassment portions of the EULA.

Now name something you can do in game, in an adversarial context, that doesn't fit that definition.

Go on.

I'll wait.

You keep on missing the part where a rule doesn't have to be broken for CCP to act. Suck it up.

Well folks thats enough for me, pretty sure this thread has reached the end.

Think it was Antisocial Malkavian who finally broke me by saying that that being banned for telling a CCP employee to DIAF is wrong and that is proof of GM's showing bias.

Wow this community really does attract some strange people.

I think Lucas will be very happy with you for helping him show GM Bias

Pretty much this.

Ingame "funny stuff" against a pilot is what the game is about but people should have the common sense to KEEP it in game and not extend that to RL people.

Funny thing related to this, from my perspective, is that EVE's reputation as a den of antisocial evil monsters, is actually remarkably misplaced, and a result of confusing it with the levity in aggressing other players that are possible in it.

Decision didn't go your way. Rage and tears flow.

CCP made their decision. Their brand, their service, their right to interpret their rules however they see fit.

Get over it. You are free to leave if this is not acceptable.

Freedom to leave...now that *is* real freedom.

(Note: that was the way I learned, but since then, Drill Sergeants aren't allowed to say that, anymore, because Congress told us to be nicer and not remind these kids that they've literally signed up to kill people for money)

I would extend that.

The key tactical error in this was leaving evidence publicly available to everyone.

So the take away message is:

Don't post evidence of questionable aspects of EvE related behaviour on the internet.

No different to home movies really. If you don't want to be embarrassed and judged by them, don't make them public.

But consider this . He was in a altered mental state thanks to erotica1 who,s aim it was to make him that way .

basically as long as someone can commit a crime against an anonymous individual its fine. If the world thought that way it would be a dark place. As we are all anonymous towards someone in this . Just because you do not know the real person, identity does not make the crime any less illegal or wrong . Dependent on circumstance and type of crime

Cuts both ways. Erotica 1 and his friends could've stopped it, too, and since they held the power in that situation, it would've been easier for them.

On the stream last night, Sohkar acknowledged that he could've left and that it was a mistake that he didn't.

Has anyone heard Erotica and his Escrow Agents do the same?

The EXACT SAME freedom the guy getting scammed had the ENTIRE TIME he was getting scammed.

That freedom you mean?

let me make it simple for you. All things in moderation. By not setting iron clad rules CCP have protected the metagame and your right to extort , or blow stuff up IN-game . But again all things in moderation. Just scam them , steal from them. spy on them. hold there ship to ransom in-game in exchange for isk . Just dont torment people for hours on end , for the sole purpose of breaking them .

no its not . But doing that over and over and over etc , to the same individual non-stop, out of a vindictive (narcissistic) need goes overboard and would and should be dealt with

The fact is Ripard Teg stepped out of line by instigating and encouraging a "witch hunt". He wrote a blog story in which he publicly harassed an individual of this community, and shared that story with the broader MMO community. Not once did he ask Sohkar for his opinion on his experience, nor did he ask other past Bonus Room clients, this was solely his own vendetta against a player of this community who had without CCP involvement of any kind done this same thing to hundreds of people for nearly a year.

If this was truly a case of harassment and stepping outside the lines, then where was the ban, or warning about such things a A month ago when this particular incident was first shared with the community, 3 months ago, 6 months ago, a year ago?
Yet I am sure Ripard Teg is free of his involvement in this, he is freed of his harassment of both Erotica1 and Sohkar, whom was ejected from his corporation not because of "The Bonus Room" but because Ripard Teg put him into the public spotlight.

Frankly I think the most disgusting part of this is that a representative of this community took it upon himself to be judge jury and executioner, when that should solely lie with CCP, and only be implemented when a member of the community asks them to investigate an issue.

By all rights this scenario should have been between the Client, CCP and Erotica1, not Ripard Teg, not his Jesters Trek Blog, not the MMO community, and certainly not the numerous White Knights who mounted their horses and marched off to a 400 page threadnaught calling for heads to roll.

If anyone should be banned for this it should be Ripard Teg, and his clear button pushing that has impacted Sohkar far more than anything Erotica1 did, the game moving forward for him is now forever changed, because Ripard wanted to settle a personal vendetta.

How is there no evidence? Erotica 1 has been doing and publishing these for a long time, go ahead, look it up. Therefore if they are even remotely competent and they have been enforcing their rules all along, nothing would have happened. Instead there's a sudden announcement and banning. Clearly something must have changed.

When you go out of your way to hunt down the SAME INDIVIDUAL AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR theoretically SAY WEEKS OR MONTHS ON END.

Does anyone else get the point of all things in moderation yet

It doesn't, in all of the above cases. As has been stated repeatedly, ad nauseam on this thread by Malkanis and others. I'm not sure whether you've not read their posts,a re trying to make a slippery-slope argument or what...

ITS CCP who was the ultimate judge and executioner. Riptard simply brought it to everyone attention . And people reacted based on their views and opinions of acceptable behavior. CCP did the same

It's not complicated. CCP becomes aware of the sick stuff going on, and decides to end its association with an offender.

CCP cannot police everything that happens on private chat servers, and might never have learned about the Bonus Room. When the cyberbullies publish to the web, however, word gets around and eventually finds its way to the GMs. No cloak-and-dagger theories need be invented to explain some mysterious delay.

And nothing need have changed inside CCP for them to have decided not to allow EVE to be a part of the bullying.

Ganking players as a form of game play is fine. The line is ultimately where ccp deams it to be . As for the personal line that's upto you . Its upto to decide when you've had enough or gone to far. Basically do what you gotta do . But accept the consequences of YOUR ACTIONS

I have no dog in this particular fight, but I have been playing this game off and on for about ten years. Mostly off due to RL time constraints, but I've still seen lots of things come and go.
From a fairly disinterested and jaundiced eye I will say in this episode that Ripard Teg et al. (bloggers etc.) are no different than Erotica 1. Both parties are creepy in their own particular way.
Erotica 1 used in game scams to facilitate a meta-game where he could cause RL anguish to fellow players.
Ripard Teg et al. used their blogs to facilitate (by manipulating CCP?) a meta-game where they could cause RL anguish to Erotica 1.
So, EVE is still EVE and all parties involved, in this episode, have much more in common than they may realize.

As has been stated every time this argument has come up so far on this thread, not getting caught _probably_ is a good way not to get punished. Not doing anything that you can be caught doing is probably the best way of not getting caught.

CCP didn't disagree with the actions of E1 for more than a year. It only became against the rules when Ripard Teg decided it should be.

Like I said, I made someone sing for their explo frigate last year. They were pretty mad.

Am I randomly going to get banned, now? It's been ok for a year or more, is it going to stop being ok out of the blue?

Well said, sir!

Strikes me that you may not comprehend where you stand, let me clarify that for you.

CCP, the company that owns and operates this game, made a decision to punish some behaviour that they felt was getting out of line. They deliberately did not do this by introducing new rules. They did this by selectively enforcing an interpretation of existing rules. Their interpretation. Of their rules. Within a service they operate. And want to continue operating. Which requires good press, to attract new players and generate new revenue not to mention revenue growth. Nothing they can do will make everyone happy so they did what they think will be the least damaging thing.

You demand clear lines. You demand absolute rules. Very well.

Take up Erotica 1's torch. Become the arch-scumbag that anti-EVE blogs are made of. I'm sure you will find out where the lines are.

But recognize that for all your rage, your demands, your righteous indignation - that battle already ended and the side you are rooting for lost.

But recognize that for all your rage, your demands, your righteous indignation - that battle already ended and the side you are rooting for lost.

No - we've accepted that CCP already ave a set of rules that we have agreed to play by. We've also all agreed to abide by their decisions regarding those rules and to any changes they make to those rules. Fortunately there's an option in there for us to opt out if we want. We're held to no financial liability beyond the subscription period (and any damages caused I guess) and can drop out of the game any time we choose and go play other games where we prefer those rules (or how they're interpretted).

It's really not very complex. CCP choose to run the rules with fairly significant grey areas and that's EVE. It goes along with the gankers, scammers and awoxers (who are in no way threatened by the ruling here and are, in fact, protected by the existence of those grey areas). If you don't like games where the rules have grey areas of this nature then there are plenty of games with much clearer divisions between black and white. I'm sure there are folks here who can recommend some.

Ripard Teg brought what was an unknown issue to people like myself and the wider community who do not necessarily use the official forums , and vast majority stated there dis-stain for such behavior. I do not interact with trade hub locals because i know its scam central. Therefore having not been scammed like many others who take precautions , i was unaware such action was taking place. Ripard Teg brought what i believe to be a immoral act in my opinion to light . That is all he did

So you're actually just an attention seeking **** stirrer? An emo kid kicking the thread for his infantile jollies and the "hey, look at ME!!!" factor?

I'm cool with that.

Carry on, forum warrior.

Do you actually not know who Kugu is?

nope

Someone linked it above.

The short of it is that Kugu was a whistleblower for a MUCH worse issue. Outright cheating a developer favoritism to a specific nullsec alliance.

He exposed it, and was figuratively nuked. IP banned for life, his name made into a word bannable to say for years.

ok skimmed the mittani thread. THE T2 back then really annoyed me quit eve for a while as a result . CCP has changed a lot since then with regards to policies of in-game interactions and use by employees. But yes in that incident seven years ago CCP were in the wrong completely . Thank fully since then a lot has changed and with the internet being so widespread, CCP and other corporations cant sensor people without damn good reason .E.G i express disapproval of corporation A its fine

E.g i express hatred and state that poeple should attack said corporation (A) thats not and probably i would receive some form of punishment

YES BECAUSE A LOT HAS CHANGED IN SEVEN YEARS

Well trolling exercise too.

you mean they way that sociopath and his sycophants forgot it was a game when they pulled their depraved **** on TS. Like that you mean.

om nom nom, your sociopath tears, good they taste.....................

It's amazing how much heat Erotica is getting.. He's Famous! Next he'll get hired by CCP and no one will be allowed to mention anything or be banned.. like min....t....cough.


Eve is real! oh wait.. its not real don't take it to team speak.. Eve is real.. eve isn't real...im lost lol


Btw.. Thank you for playing eve, please don't cry today.. we don't want to see a 400 page dev post about causing real life tears..

Thank you.

- Empress of Eve..
ps eve community is harsh, life is harsh.. sand and water and harden the ____ up.
Ps Can I have your stuffs if your quitting?

mmmmm keep your tears coming I am noming lots of them today

Then why are you so outraged? It's only a game. Perhaps you should take a break from Eve :)

Just going to off topic here and pontificate a bit.

I play combat flight sims. When my squadron goes up against another in a war, we are every bit as brutal as anything you'll see in 0.0. We are harsh and kill without remorse. Our forums reflect this. There is stuff in there I would never share with people I'd want to keep as friends. We joke about death and destruction. A lot.

But here's the thing we don't do. We don't bring real world into it. We don't link vids of helicopters straffing newsmen in the middle east and laugh about it. We show pictures of Eastern Front destruction but draw a line at showing bodies. We don't joke about the human cost of real war. There's no place for that in a game.

So when I see people making light of real world tragedies, I get a little irked. It may seem nothing to you but that was a real plane, full of real people that have real families left in shock and grief.

We all have a line. That's where I draw mine.

Mr Epeen

I couldn't figure out how a person who participated willingly at every step of the process could be "harassed." I admit, I just didn't think of the one glaring possibility that should be obvious to all.

You're right. I fixed it.

Lets say i put a gun to someones head, and tell him unless he sings me a song i'll shoot him, if he starts singing did he then do it of his own free will?. He had two choices, he could sing or he could die. Most people would say i forced him, i guess you would says he just wanted to sing more then he wanted to die, and acted of his own free will.

If you are keeping all of someones in-game assets hostage, which he may have spend years gathering, it's probably not hard to make someone do all sorts of things willingly.

This is the problem with you people.

You have been, and continue to equate pixels with real life activity.

Moreso when the closest analogy to what you just said "Sing or you die", is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE in this game, with plenty of precedent of that happening.

I think I see the problem, and I think I have a decent explanation: No one, not even CCP, knows what will get you banned.

But RMT is a known bannable offense you say? Hogwash! You get banned for RMT *if* you get caught and if CCP decides it's worth the time and effort to ban you. More importantly, you can get banned for *not* engaging in RMT due to a false positive. So there's no guarantee that following or breaking any particular rule will or won't get you banned.

More importantly, you need to realize that human rules, human laws, human policies, human EULAs, human ToS's are *not* absolute. People are fuzzy, which means enforcement of rules, laws, et. al., is also fuzzy. Do the cops arrest everyone who goes a mile (or km) over the posted speed limit? No. Perusing the news will reveal a myriad of cases involving selective enforcement of rules. If you talk to the right person, you will find that there's a lot of leeway in how, when, and for whom the rules are applied. You may think willfully bending/ignoring/breaking the rules is a bad thing, but strict, unyielding application of rules isn't a good idea either (as a 9 year girl found out when she was suspended for violating her school's dress code after shaving her head in support of a friend battling cancer.) Never mind that people's interpretation of the rules isn't consistent between people.

Since human rules are fuzzy in terms of definition, enforcement and consistency, no one can tell you where the line between banned and not-banned is. However, you can ask yourself the following:
* What are the odds that my actions will offend CCP enough that they will ban me?
* What are the odds that my actions will offend the public to the point that CCP will bow to public pressure to ban me?

* What are the odds that my actions will offend CCP enough that they will ban me?
* What are the odds that my actions will offend the public to the point that CCP will bow to public pressure to ban me?

He gave over the assets willingly too, so start to finish it was all his choice. This is not in dispute as the "victim" himself has confirmed this in no uncertain terms.

And if your in game assets are worth so much to you that you are willing to do things that make you uncomfortable out of game, you have serious problems.

If it's just pixels, then give me all of your pixels. If you won't then clearly they aren't "just pixels".


Look, you played, you lost. CCP 1 You 0. Be gracious in defeat friend.

What are you talking about? People have ransomed developers on live streams for a song, and they never got banned.

That's what I'm trying to say. All you people saying "If you put a gun to their heads" are ignoring everything but whatever emotion is driving you forward.

I don't particularly care about E1. I just happen to really dislike the precedent this sets, where you can get someone banned by getting a big enough of a fuss started.

You should read Remiel's post on the matter, before it gets deleted.

Pretty clear at this point that there are no rules, it's just being made up and enforced arbitrarily.

EVE Radio is quite interesting tonight.

Ripard Teg Refuses to go on the show with Erotica and Sohkar to discuss this. I wonder why?

LIVE BROADCAST ON THIS: http://www.twitch.tv/everadiolive

Awaiting Ripard Tegs comments.

This conversation has clearly reached a conclusion. This thread has stopped growing at a rate that is almost impossible to keep up with.

Are you supporting the out of game harassment of the Sohkar bonus room? This has got to be an obtuse Ero 1 "escrow agent."

Good point! Fixed it and it is from a song, and is about a character in the LFG web comic.

Link for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g

I took some time off from this game with all this nonsense. I could not in good conscience play a game were the owners allowed such events to occur. I think banning ero 1 was the right thing to do. I will never forget how sadistic this guy sounded. I want to play with in game villains not serial killers in the making. I hope the FBI is watching him.

Woah... I did miss a bit. This gem in particular.

From what I understand here:

Ero made a jackass out of some jackass. Ha ha. This = life ban.

Sohkar made a DEATH THREAT and that only gets a 30 day ban?? WTF? Youll have to explain that one.

Why do people keep equating stupid with carebear in this thread?

I remember back when Erotica1 made bonus room victims spam our in-boxes to announce their upcoming degradation, I received mails from some pretty prominent PVP players.

It's not what you choose as a career that makes you stupid. It's that you think you can get something for nothing in this game. And from what I've seen there is no shortage of stupid right across the spectrum here.

Mr Epeen

Except that Erotica 1 was the one who posted it "all over internet" and CCP was not immediately aware of it. Or can you prove that they were aware of what goes inside the bonus room right from the beginning? I do think that Erotica 1 would have been eventually banned (assuming he is banned), but you guys wouldn't have had messenger to shoot.

Now, get over your grief over your loved one's apparent banning and play the game.

Are you telling me that no one from CCP reads the minerbumper blog? Are you also telling me that CCP wasn't reading all the locked posts in C&P over the last 6 months that had recordings posted on them? If they really didn't know should we put ISD upto task for not forwarding those posts and this 'grave injustice' to CCP?

You don't really believe that do you?

0:46
Joined by Jaschar Verge, the the CEO of Dark Aether Operations. He tells us the story about how he heard the Bonus Room recording back when it was covered by James 315 in February on Minerbumping, and decided to take sohkar under his wing. sohkar was in his corp for nearly 3 weeks until being removed for his own protection. sohkar is free to rejoin whenever he thinks he'll be safe again in a player corp.

2:06
Back to Eve. Allegedly CCP has known about the bonus room since at least November. sohkar's bonus room was well publicized on Minerbumping.com a month ago, was not a secret. The victim says he was over it, and got on with his life. 1 month later, CCP suddenly "gives fucks" when Ripard Teg whips less than 500 people into a frenzy on a threadnought on Eve-O.

Just one.

That's the rule. One petition per issue.

Mr Epeen

Are you telling me that no one from CCP reads the minerbumper blog? Are you also telling me that CCP wasn't reading all the locked posts in C&P over the last 6 months that had recordings posted on them? If they really didn't know should we put ISD upto task for not forwarding those posts and this 'grave injustice' to CCP?

You don't really believe that do you?

Yeah I've been wondering where people have been getting that as well. Figured maybe it was posted somewhere and I simply hadn't seen it or something.

2:35
Erotica 1 is finally located and joins us. I ask a lot of questions, some similar to the round done at 1:12. He confirms his ban, tells us bits about the bonus room his associates could not. Tells his side of the story.

Use of acceptable grammar - check
Capitalization where it belongs - check
Half decent use of punctuation - check
No random all-cap words - check

You type as though you have some education and a basic to middling I.Q., so why do you also come across as so bull headedly stupid?

A conundrum, for sure.

Mr Epeen

So it is your contention then that the EULA for Eve Online extends outside of Eve online and into our personal lives and what transpires on privately-owned TS servers and non-registered blogs? Because that's pretty damn far-reaching IMO.

What about in-game where the SADIST was HUNTING for his victims?

Quite possibly so.

In this case, however, the offense was so blatant that I think that CCP had no option than to bring down the hammer on Erotic1, if indeed that is what has happened. I don't know if it has and quite frankly don't want to know.

Speaking of general media, I wonder what the larger gaming community as a whole will think of CCP apparently asserting (through it's actions) that their TOS and EULA extends outside of the game and into the personal lives and private property of it's players.

It doesnt matter whether somethign neither of us can prove or disprove did or didnt happen.

His Alliance mates did.

I'm not familiar enough with the techniques involved to know how easy it is to obtain reasonable proof that a particular party is responsible for such an attack, but to answer your question, sure, why not?

4. Ripard Teg however felt Sohkar was 'abused', 'harassed' and 'tortured' in real life, and in his holy estimation of morality that Erotica 1 should be removed from taking part in in-game EvE gameplay.

In short...

1. Erotica 1 was 'mean' out of game to another EvE player Sohkar.

2. Sohkar did not file criminal charges of harassment et al against Erotica 1, so real world harassment has not been proven in law. Erotica 1 hasn't been convicted of anything. More telling is that Sohkar has since made it clear he does not feel Erotica 1 harrassed him.

3. Additionally, it should be noted Dominatrixes in my area charge $140 for 1/2 of willing S&M or BDSM abuse, while Erotica 1 charged Sohkar nothing. Submissives in these scenarios typically use 'safe words' to end abusive play at their choosing. Sohkar had a teamspeak disconnect button. He didn't press it.

4. Ripard Teg however felt Sohkar was 'abused', 'harassed' and 'tortured' in real life, and in his holy estimation of morality that Erotica 1 should be removed from taking part in in-game EvE gameplay.

5. Carebears and pansies joined Ripard Teg's witchhunt,

6. CCP did more 'research', six months after the event, and banned Erotica 1 from EvE online.

Now despite CCP not saying why exactly Erotica 1 was banned, and folks like Malcanis saying 'you dont have the full information', I think we have all the information we need...

By all appearances Erotica 1 was not banned because of a violation of TOS or EULA that CCP can honestly defend (or they would perhaps quote it), he appears to have been banned based on moral hand wringing by pansies and the fact people in power dont like him or his actions.

Welcome to the 'sandbox'. Be the villian...until someones feelings get hurt, then you are screwed.

p.s.
Given Ripard Teg may have actually made real-world accusations about Erotica 1's 'torture', 'harassment' and 'abuse' of Sohkar, I would find it entertaining indeed if Erotica 1 now successfully sued Ripard for publishing slanderous libel against him. For surely if Erotica 1's actions outside of the game were real acts of 'torture', 'harassment' etc, then equally Ripards comments are actionable for libel and slander if said acts weren't provable true in court?

F

Remind me again what the title of this thread is, who posted it, and the timing of said post?

Could you stop that? Carebears care about the sandbox as much as griefers, gankers, PvPer, what ever you want to name them.

Your cause is lost anyway.
HTFU and move on.

Please link to a DEV post stating it was because of the TS that he was banned. Else stop spouting lies.

Mr Epeen

The enforceability of an EULA depends on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard. Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C.GÇösee, for instance, Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology,[4] Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd..[5] Other courts have determined that the shrinkwrap license agreement is valid and enforceable: see ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg,[6] Microsoft v. Harmony Computers,[7] Novell v. Network Trade Center,[8] and Ariz. Cartridge Remanufacturers Ass'n v. Lexmark Int'l, Inc.[9] may have some bearing as well. No court has ruled on the validity of EULAs generally; decisions are limited to particular provisions and terms.

CCP seems to have far too much tolerance for real life threats when they are addressed at the "bad guy" players, from what I have seen.

Sophistry, pettifogging and general hair-splitting. You might do well as a lawyer.

CCP perceived a threat to their reputation and took action against the person bringing their name and business into disrepute.

If someone threatened your livelihood wouldn't you do all in your power to protect yourself?

Mike used an analogy of some boys, in a school he worked at, that had sexually assaulted female students - as comparable to what occurred between Eros and Sohkar(in that first podcast) to let people know where he stands in regards to this incident. Can someone explain how he equates physical sexual assault to be even remotely the same as to what occurred between Eros and Sohkar?

The EULA, TOS and anything else you want to quote applies to customers, common sense is meant to pre-empt all that. CCP can do what they want.

I'd like a source on that please.

Hi, GM Eskimo here,

Thank you for contacting Customer Support. There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE. We are not able to take anything from any third parties as evidences to accuse any players.

Best Regards,
GM Eskimo
CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | Dust 514

Am not going to quote your posts. No need.

It's clear who has lost control here.

The 3rd party comms bit has been covered.

I should add at this point that I have never been scammed. I don't hate E1. I'm not a fan of Ripard and I don't feel irate.

I got upvoted by E1 in the original thread as I wasn't convinced that he should be banned.

Now - perhaps you could stop telling me to remove my head from my ass and be civil.

Nothing has changed, Lucas. The only thing that has happened is that CCP has stepped in against something they find objectionable.

Bumping an orca might be a pain for the pilot but until you have killed it you haven't gained anything. If you popped it and then spent three hours bumping the pod then I think you would have something to answer to, no?

When Erotica posted the link to the Sohkar Bonus Round on the EVE forums in late February, that cleared up any question of the audio possibly being doctored to frame him.

It also brought an incident that occurred on a third party platform here onto CCP property. His posting of it, since he was the instigator, could be seen as further harassment of the victim.

Because that's the way they roll.

I know that. You know that. Pretty much everyone that has played longer than a week knows that.

Mr Epeen

Mob crying is all I see. And the mob is 90% you. Post after post after post of nothing but major butt hurt.

Mr Epeen

Well clearly they did nothing because they didn't care...it wasn't until a CSM that wants to be a self-righteous Inquisitor wrote about it.

did nothing because they didn't care...it wasn't until a CSM that wants to be a self-righteous Inquisitor wrote about it.

I am not sure it qualifies as a precedent, but CCP have made it clear that they find some behaviour unacceptable.

If I owned CCP I would have given Ero a three month ban, and made it very clear to him that any similar behaviour by him in the future would mean that we would just have to manage without him playing our game, forever.

Yes, this is in the EULA

You will be banned if found to have used out of game mechanisms in this manner

And you should count yourself lucky that if you DDOS they dont call Johnny Law on you too.